If you celebrate human suffering and deaths for the positive environmental effects they have, rethink your environmentalism and maybe rethink your life.

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You just might be an ecofascist with genocidal tendencies if:
- You focus on other groups' environmental footprints while ignoring your own
- You think "overpopulation" is the problem and not overconsumption
- You seize on the environmental silver lining in large-scale human suffering and deaths
- Your environmentalism focuses on there being fewer people, who just happen to be the "wrong" kinds of people, instead of systemic changes that pursue both sustainability and human flourishing.

Environmentalism that celebrates the destruction of human beings is nothing but a greenwashed death cult. By thinking this way you become part of the problem and not the solution.

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@solarkraft @lj_writes unfortunately, i've ran into a handful of people like that before

@solarkraft @lj_writes they're the majority in almost every European green movement I know of

@CornishRepublicanArmy @solarkraft @lj_writes

Gonna' fix this by advocating for only rich White people to forego having children. 🎭 I bet it'll play really well with my public.

@lj_writes @xenophora @solarkraft no, one of the middle aged white women will say "ok guys, our energies here are all out of whack, we need to get in tune with each other. here's something I learned in India...." and proceed to say a bunch of extremely orientalist appropriative shit

@lj_writes @xenophora @solarkraft because I have spent too much time around these kinds of people and know exactly what they always do 🙄

@lj_writes @CornishRepublicanArmy @solarkraft

[Me: smoothing my lapel with the knuckles of one hand] But I never said all White people were rich. I guess now we all know who the *real* racist is! [calmly sipping cheap champagne and eating sheet cake with my other hand]

@lj_writes - You police and condemn other people’s/communities’ plates under an aegis of moralism for non-human animals

@patience yuuup 👆 Also, relatedly, compare the meat industry to historical atrocities against marginalized peoples

@lj_writes sorry, but incomparable, as the meat industry doesn’t exist to politically exterminate an entire population subset under an aegis of “cleansing” or “purity“ or “eradication” by killing and then doing nothing with carcasses

the industrialized way that industry operates is problematic in many ways and tied to capitalism, yes, but this is not remotely adjacent to any genocide ever

@patience exactly! Even aside from the literal dehumanization, and even if they use the "I see humans as equal to other animals!" excuse (a HIGHLY suspect claim for many cultures but especially for white Europeans), they are still completely incomparable situations omg.

Additional notes, Eco-Fascism 

Additional notes, Eco-Fascism 

@lj_writes love too complain that there are too many people on my 3 hours long rant videos I upload to youtube in 4k, wasting more bandwidth and carbon than most humans do in a year

@lj_writes Hi, "ecofascism" isn't a real thing. It's a boogieman, originally built in the latter half of the 20th century by (mostly) anglophone liberal capitalists and their ghostwriters to smear environmental activists with, particularly those who demanded action following the publication of Limits to Growth and related early works that voiced concerns with the sustainability of the global economy.

It's a label that is and has always been used disingenuously since its inception. Don't fall into the trap of taking it seriously. It's about as real (and useful) as "Feminazi".

@pingviini so what do you suggest we call the strain of thought I've described in this thread? I mean I totally agree the term is overused/misused as all terms can be, i.e. conflating environmental regulation with fascism, but what do you call it when people do in fact use ecological concerns as a pretext for celebrating human deaths, and have been doing so for a very long time?

@lj_writes @pingviini Depends on the individual people - some of them might be political extremists of some kind or another, others might just be provocateurs (i.e. trolls), some of them might be misanthropes and a bunch of them are probably racists but I can guarantee you none of them are part of an "ecofascist" political movement.

@pingviini So they're lone wolves/bad apples, but don't call them ecofascists even though they are fascistic in their aims and rhetoric (and you might want to educate yourself on how trolls and fascism feed into each other, they are not separate phenomena) which they justify with environmentalism? How about... no. It's an accurate term and you are not helping the problem at all by minimizing the problem and attempting to silence the language used to describe it.

@pingviini Also you have some nerve trying to put the issue down to a few isolated crackpots and generic misanthropy when people like Garett Hardin, a virulent eugenicist and racist, have shaped ecological thought in the West and colonialist ecological management itself has a long history of racist and genocidal policies. scholarship.law.umt.edu/cgi/vi

@lj_writes Look, if you are determined to waste your precious time on thinking about and spreading this made-up meme (meme in the original sense as coined by famous educator and occasional misanthrope & sexist, Richard Dawkins) I can't stop you.

But, friendly warning, you are making yourself a pawn in someone else's game. And the way things are going, you will probably live to see the ecofascist smear hurled at someone you care about or some political movement you support.

@pingviini Ooh, being called a fascist, how soul-destroying and unimagineable! 😱 You mentioned the "feminazi" label, you think my loved ones and I haven't been called that? We survived lmao. And you think my precious ego over a misused label is going to stop me from calling out the actual Nazis in the feminist movement? Imagine thinking being called a fascist is worse than having actual fascists in your movement, can't relate.

@pingviini Speaking of which I notice you haven't responded to any of my substantive points, except to reiterate that being called a fascist is a fate worse than death. Like what kind of egotistic, ass-backward position...

an unimportant rhetorical or philosophical tangent 

an unimportant rhetorical or philosophical tangent 

@lj_writes
Hi Large,

Can you point us to someone of influence that actually does any of those things listed?

#Overpopulation is a massive problem, as is consumption. What we find is that anyone who broaches the subject of #populationGrowth is not given a fair platform. The popn growth we are facing, coupled with aspirational #overconsumption that the west promote is a recipe for terrible ills. Even without overconsumption #inequality tends to grow.

Check out Sustainable Population Australia.

@dsfgs Hi Dick,

I mean, what's the point? I could point out the nationalist romanticism in European ecological movements as espoused by fascists like Richard Spencer, that a Holocaust denier ran as a candidate for the Green Party, that the intellectual and policy history of Western environmentalism is steeped in racism & genocide, but you've already put wheels on those goalposts and will shoot me down by denying that any of the examples I'm talking about is indvidually influential enough.

@dsfgs I could give you links about the intersections between ecological movements and fascism, nybooks.com/daily/2018/10/22/t about the racist history of national parks, scholarship.law.umt.edu/cgi/vi about the intellectual influence of eugenicists like Garrett Hardin, scholarship.law.umt.edu/cgi/vi but you won't read them or you'll cry cherry-picking and lack of influence, perhaps by the circular logic of saying no one who is that extreme could truly be influential.

@dsfgs I only feel the need to spend my time on people who engage in good faith, and you are not when you set a disingenuous standard that you can move around at will and want me to take overpopulation as an ecological concern seriously when the world as a whole is aging and a poor rural woman in Cambodia would have to have over 200 children to match the environmental footprint of a middle-class U.S. family. So why don't we stop wasting each other's time and move on? 👋

@lj_writes
Interesting points and not ones that we had been made aware of previously, we might have some reading ahead. In Australia, our National Parks don't seem to be based on corrupt ideas but perhaps we will investigate.

Aging is mostly a red-herring, as we age we also experience lower disability and working longer. Using aging as an excuse to bring in extreme numbers of workers is disingenuous and actually a #neoliberal #pyramidScheme - because migrants also age.

There are going...(1/4)

@lj_writes
(2/4)

There are going to be bad apples in any bunch. We cannot single out #environmentalists any more than #religiousGroups that believe when people die, that's Gods way. Or #capitalists who believe that the 99% don't work hard enough. Or #slavetrade operators, #rentSeekers and rabid #shareholders who want to suck all the #productiveValue from the masses while paying them a pittance and #evadingTaxes that might help pay for #publicGoods like #healthcare.

The bad exist...(2/4)

@lj_writes
The bad exist largely outside the environmentalist space, we find.

Many environmental and #population groups like Sustainable Population Australia and the Population Media Center and more understand that #goodHealth and low #childMortality are important in producing lower #fertility. When people are confident their offspring will survive they have fewer kids. Also encouraging the use of #contraceptives/#condoms etc helps to reduce the spread of some #diseases.

In our... (3/5)

@lj_writes
5/7
In our experience those concerned about population tend to be the more caring amoung us.

When it comes to #Australia. We reduced our electricity consumption by 40% between about 2003 and 2015. What did our leaders do, but bring in more people to consume more in the interests of boosting resource consumption. The #CEOs, #economists, #warPigs and #bankers are likely the worst #nihalists and #deathCult #fascists this earth will ever see (and we don't use those terms lightly).

(5/7)

@lj_writes
6/7

There are billions of poor worldwide, but reducing fertility while lifting them out of poverty is the best way forward while we reduce our consumption (as we have been).

A population has as impact on the globe just as a rectangle has an area. To say that population is not an issue but consumption is, means the height of the rectangle has no bearing on its area. A fallacy - both are linked.

Being Kidfree is the greatest gift anyone...6/7

@lj_writes
7/7
Being #Kidfree is the greatest gift anyone can give the world *at this stage*. Having said that, anyone wanting a child can #adopt a child in need. It may surprise how much a child can take on the adopted parent's appearance and behaviours!

@lj_writes
PS. We are not Dick, just supporters of his #FairGo movement, which involves three main pillers being #reduce the extreme #populationGrowth that serves only the very #extremelyWealthy by providing more #consumers and #lowerWages, making sure the wealthy pay their fair share in tax, and getting money out of politics.

@dsfgs And I'm not "large" either, my profile says what my name is but you didn't even care enough to click and find out before simply calling me by the first word in my display name, so I did the same to you. Turnabout is fair play 😘

@lj_writes
Np. Sorry for not using your preferred name. We just needed to be clear because in the past some people thought that we were #DickSmith himself.

There's no need to use inflamatory language. Consider using a bit of the advice given to us by you.

As an #environmental and #socialJustice group that does talk about #population we did feel the need to probe into the specifics given the unsavory responses that are very rarely thrown our way.

@dsfgs And there's no need for you to be in my mentions, is there? 🙃 Block me if you don't like my tone lmao, you're not a mod on my instance and this ain't your thread. I have 0 reason to be polite to some random who showed up out of nowhere to lecture at and strawman me so fuck off.

@lj_writes
What we love about the #fediverse is learning different viewpoints.

If difficulties are experienced by you, their are choices available.

Regards

@dsfgs Your coming into my mentions to be a disingenuous and condescending dipshit, even AFTER I told you in no uncertain terms to go away, is a "difficulty" that I'M experiencing? 😂 Yeah sure, champ. Next time's a block.

@dsfgs Also look, idek about this group you're talking about and tbh I don't care enough to find out or to hear a long lecture from you directly in my mentions. If you'll notice I talked about environmentalists who care only about overpopulation and NOT overconsumption/production? If that's not you then it's not you. Stop being so fucking fragile and move on. And regardless of the specific group you're talking about, let's not pretend that a lot of anti-immigration groups aren't racist as fuck.

@dsfgs omfg when did I say environmentalism was the *only* movement with fascistic elements in it 🙄 my only point is that environmentalism *does* have bad elements in it, largely because whiteness/European culture is fundamentally based on racism, and these should be confronted and driven out and not denied. If you're not denying that point, cool.

@lj_writes The problem is neither overpopulation nor overconsumption. It's *overproduction*. Don't blame consumers, blame capitalist corporations for producing much more than neccessary, and destroying the rest. Many fashion labels destroy last season's stock, purely to keep prices high. The majority of food waste is done by supermarkets throwing out unbought stock.

@LunaDragofelis Good point there, I keep forgetting how the language we use can get into blaming individuals, thus shunting attention away from structural issues. The aims and methods of environmental movements must always be structural and collective--it is self-defeating to sink into individual choice and guilt.

@LunaDragofelis @lj_writes yeah, it drove me nuts throwing away a ton of food each night after closing bc we weren't allowed to give it out. Companies will always care more about profit than practicality 🙄 #eattherich

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